Stupid Comment of the month!
I almost forgot to announce the stupid comment of the month for November. Everyone remembers the winner last time: the fake Marine from New York City, who was pretending to be a Marine to make arguments but forgot details about his unit, his commander, and other important details.
This months winner is Bill for his comment on my "Chinese Spies at UW?" piece:
In part:
I think you should be required to take a course in the history of popular struggle against state oppression and Fascism. We could start with Mussolini & Hitler, their targeting of immigrants and left-wing activists, then talk about the Spanish Civil War in the 1930s and the struggle against Franco, move on to American expressions of Fascism like the KKK and the American Legion, and end with a discussion of real far-right racist groups that are active today, like the MinuteMen, the French National Front, and the British National Party. (emphasis added)
He thinks the AMERICAN LEGION is a fascist organization. Yes, he believes that an organization made up mostly of WWII and Korean War Veterans are fascist. Well, guess what Bill, they sacrificed more blood than you have ever seen. They lost more friends than you even have. They gave up their youth to defend this nation.
This comment is a new low for the radical anti-war left. But it is nothing new. Their anti-troop, anti-veteran, anti-ROTC campaign of terror thas been waging on this campus for a while. They hate people that are willing to die for a cause. Mostly, because the anti-war left don't have the guts to find a cause worth putting their life on the line for.
All the Bills in Madison look at soldiers and think they are smarter and more sophisticated. The Bills say that soldiers are "duped" into serving. Find me an ROTC cadet or midshipman that is only doing to for the money and I will delete this post. There is more to it than money. It is about America, about freedom, and it is about democracy.
Finally, NEVER compare the American Legion to the KKK ...you heartless idiot. Shave your beard, comb your hair, take a shower, go to the local American Legion Post and talk to the Veterans about what they went through. Go alone, let your guard down, have a few drinks, and see what the Greatest Generation did for our nation. Get a little culture in you, before I start calling you ignorant.
What does the Blogosphere say? Is Bill right? Is the American Legion a fascist institution on the same level as the KKK? Let me hear your thoughts.
posted by Rob at 01:51
23 Comments:
You can go ahead and delete your post Bob.
http://www.madison.com/archives/read.php?ref=tct:2005:02:21:404501:The%20Capital%20Times
Ever heard of Joe Lindstrom? He was a friend of mine, in Iraq right now because of the "back door draft." Joe signed up for the national guard to pay for college, because he came from a low-income family. He protested against this illegal war before it started, was an activist for affordable housing and against homeless in Progressive Dane, and continues to oppose the imperialist occupation of Iraq.
We used have a website for him, but something happened to the server -- www.bringjoehome.us
And just for the record, I am MORE than willing to die for my cause. I have no qualms about shooting and fighting the racist, class traitor pigs who patrol our streets on a daily basis, harrassing homeless people, repressing social activists, and defending corporate power from the working class.
As for the Greatest Generation, your ilk was about 10-20 years late. The struggle against Fascism started in the 1920s. Many Anarchists and Communists were killed in the failed German revolution of 1919-1921, which was crushed by the Friecorp (later to become the German "National Socialist Workers Party") in the first known example of the Swastica flag flying over a military victory.
And again in the Spanish Civil war of the 1930s, while wealthy American capitalists like Henry Ford were giving massive financial and material support to Hitler, Mussolini, and Franco. In fact, Ford recieved the Nazi regime's highest civilian medal on his 75th birthday in 1937 - Henry Ford, center, is awarded the Grand Cross of the German Eagle by Nazi diplomats.
Ford Motor Company also built tanks for the Nazi's all throughout WWII. They sued the United States Federal Government in 1952-53 for bombing their Tank Factories in France and Germany, AND THEY WON THE LAWSUIT!
But this is only the tip of the iceberg - American Corporations and Hitler
You LOST this argument Bob. And you will continue being on the wrong side of history, so long as you take the side of the state's oppression and tryanny, against those of us struggling on the side of the people, for social justice and grassroots democracy.
Now delete your post.
Tue Dec 06, 03:17:00 AM CST
More links for Bob, on the Anarchist struggle against Fascism during the 1920s and 30s:
The Historic Strugle Against Franco and Hitler, in Spain: Does revolutionary Spain show that libertarian socialism can work in practice?
Remembering the Anarchist Resistance to fascism
Forgotten heros: The role Spanish anarchists played in fighting fascism in France in WWII
Anarchism and the fight against fascism: An index of anarchist anti-fascist links and articles
Tue Dec 06, 03:43:00 AM CST
Oh, and another thing I forgot to address, Bob, was the American Legion. Ever heard of the Centralia Massacre?
In 1919, these American Legion thugs dragged a member of the IWW from the local jail (the Industrial Workers of the World - an organization which I am currently a dues paying members of) and extra-judicially assasinated him.
That was the EXACT same struggle that was going on Europe at the time, against the seeds of Fascism being planted there.
Like it or not, the American Legion has a Fascist history. Now I'd suggest you sit down with a beer, and talk to some veterans of the Abraham Lincoln brigade, an independent citizen's militia which travelled to Spain 1936 to fight against the Fascists in the Spanish Civil War.
Tue Dec 06, 04:11:00 AM CST
So my grandfather, who earned two purple hearts and a bronze star while fighting against Nazi Germany in WWII, and joined the American Legion upon his return, was a fascist? Thanks for clearing that up for me Bill. Now does being part of the VFW make me a fascist too? Or will I only be labeled that if I oppress a socialist?
Tue Dec 06, 12:30:00 PM CST
Jake-
I'm not saying your grandfather was a Fascist (...unless your grandfather was Henry Ford) I'm saying that history is very complex, and that connections between various authoritarian groups abound. The American Legion was far from an enlightened group, but like the KKK, had a complex set of politics.
Here's a very interesting article about the history of the Klan, which gives a much more complete picture of it as an American expression of Fascism, not much unlike the American Legion of the same time period.
Of course, I don't totally agree with the politics of the source (they are right-wing Libertarians) and thus their broad characterization of the early 20th century progressive movement are an over-simplification of left politics at the time. The progressive movement was as complex as the Klan politics described, but the point is that the American Legion, the KKK, and the conservative elements of the Progressive Movement (best characterized by Teddy Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson) were all authoritarian organizations which promoted cultural nationalism and obedience to authorities.
Here's the article - Hooded Progressivism: The secret reformist history of the Ku Klux Klan
Tue Dec 06, 07:49:00 PM CST
More hypocracy of the American Legion
Tue Dec 06, 08:29:00 PM CST
Now that's a reach, comparing Yugoslavia to Iraq.
Tue Dec 06, 10:44:00 PM CST
Well, Bill, I was going to read your nice little link about the American Legion. However, you failed to spell "hypocrisy" correctly, which threw the veracity of your entire claim into doubt.
Are you even a student?
Blogger Random 10 had a post a few days back quoting you as saying you were not enrolled for classes this semester.
True? I think so.
Tue Dec 06, 11:38:00 PM CST
Whats your point, Brad? I prefer to educate myself.
I seem to have absolutely decimated Bob on this count, despite the fact that I am not enrolled in institutionalized "education."
And I'm still waiting for him to delete this post, as he promised... not that I'm really expecting him too. Its almost better for it to stand, as a testimony to how unbelievably wrong neo-conservatives are, on just about everything.
Wed Dec 07, 03:49:00 AM CST
You think you won? Ha. First, no where in that link do I see a quote from Bill. Second, I want an ROTC cadet or midshipman (the fact that you don't know the difference shows your ignorence) since you seem to protest student soldiers so often on this campus. Third, you have not made one valid argument. So some veterans killed a socalist, to call the American Legion Facist is WRONG and the fact that you still defend that original statement is foolish. The KKK is a racist evil organization with more historical ties to the Democratic party than the Republican party(see Sen Byrd).
You know what, I am not sure you made one good point in all the posts you have up here. You are making my job so easy it is not even funny. Have fun educating yourself. Here is a realization you may have someday: This "people's history" that you enjoy reading so much is progiganda, nothing more and you are being fed lies by those that want to control you.
So, in conclusion, if Bill did sign up ONLY FOR MONEY, I want to see a quote saying just that (news report, no blogs), second, please know the difference between ROTC and National Guard (you just look kind of stupid), third, educate youself as much as you want, but know that I too can Google key words, find links, and post on ANY TOPIC I WANT. Websites are not the truth and your life is a lie.
Wed Dec 07, 08:16:00 AM CST
Oh yeah, I find it interesting that you used the word "decimated" in your last post. The word origionates from the facist Roman Empire where a general would order the killing of one out of ten of his soldiers after a defeat.
Half of your links go to "revolutionary Spain" and my favorite one is the one about anarchist fighting in France against Hitler. Hitler would have won WWII if it were not for the "evil Americans" opening up a Western front in the war. History to you is something that can be molded to meet your objectives.
By the way Bill, you never did answer my question: Have you ever held a shotgun or cut the grass with a tractor?
Wed Dec 07, 08:26:00 AM CST
I made a small mistake: I want a quote from Joe, not you Bill. In the quote I want it to say: The only and soul reason I signed up for the National Guard was to get money.
Wed Dec 07, 08:41:00 AM CST
Now that's not fair Bob, stop confusing him with the facts.
Wed Dec 07, 09:30:00 AM CST
What Facts? The one singular fact about the Roman Empire? Well guess what... I can tell you another fact about the Roman empire.
Our legal system is based in Roman law. The corporation originates in Ancient Rome, which was slave society. To incorporate translates from Latin as "to give body to." This explains exactly what corporations are to this day: Legal Fictions, given the full rights of flesh-and-blood natural persons, plus some. And this institution of state-chartered collectivist business entities, given more rights than you or I, forms the backbone of the entire capitalist economic system.
I have provided a whole slew of facts and links to back up my claims, while the only thing I have seen coming from Bob is Nationalistic rants. I showed him how Fascism develops, the history of American Fascism (including the American Legion) in its infancy as gangs of reactionary vigilantes, its attempts to seize power with backing from wealthy capitalists when capitalism is in crises, and finally, its conflicts with foriegn liberal burgiouse states (the only stage which Bob has any knowlege of)
While Bob essentially accussed me of being ungrateful to those who fought for freedom in the past, I have shown him a whole side of history he didn't even know about! In fact, it was a battalion of Spanish Anarchists who were the first to liberate Paris in 1944. Its not online, but you can read an article about it in the Winter 2004-05 issue of the Anarcho-Syndicalist review.
Got no idea what holding a shotgun or cutting grass with a tractor has to do with this, except maybe being a part of the working class. Nor I have ever seen you ask me this question before. But to answer it, yes I have done both.
Oh, and you used the wrong spelling of "soul"/"sole"... funny Brad didn't catch that one. Nice attempt to go back on your previous statements by adding extra conditions, but I will let it slide. Like I said, I'd much prefer that this stand as a testimony to how wrong the war-mongerers are. Also, I think the stupid comment of the month honor should go to Bob's rant which followed his quoting of my comment, which I have since proved is entirely accurate.
Wed Dec 07, 02:43:00 PM CST
"And just for the record, I am MORE than willing to die for my cause. I have no qualms about shooting and fighting the racist, class traitor pigs who patrol our streets on a daily basis, harrassing homeless people, repressing social activists, and defending corporate power from the working class."
You site several cases of anarchist action in the past, the centralia massacre and the liberation of Paris. Now besides boycotting McDonald's and beating drums outside of recruitment offices here in Madison, what are you 'wobblies' doing today that would make history? When will you die for your cause?
You call the war in Iraq an imperialist occupation, but I bet most Americans that have served there don't see it that way. I see it as a liberation from a very evil man, and bringing democracy to the country. My battalion commander, Lt. Col. Mark Smith once said (and I don't have the quote exact) "voter turnout in the US drops when it's a rainy day. On January 30th, it was raining mortars in Iraq, and they had a higher turnout than US elections". Now what is so wrong with this cause? It is something I put my life on the line for. And before you bring up your friend Joe, I'd like to know when and where he served, and what his MOS was. A lot of Americans served in Iraq, but many didn't see more than the Green Zone, with some not even leaving Kuwait.
Wed Dec 07, 05:04:00 PM CST
Jake,
Back me up on this one. Isn't it true that the liberation of Iraq has caused a massive redisribution of wealth from the minority upperclass Sunnis under Saddam to the majority Shi'ites?
Bill, what happened in Iraq was Saddam, an evil tyrant who was willing to starve the Shi'ites to build another palace, was overthrown and now all Iraqis can share in the countries wealth. It was a revolution of sorts!
Second, Billy Boy, Joe signed up for MORE THAN JUST MONEY. Until you prove otherwise, YOU ARE WRONG. 4 links to outlandish websites and blogs is not enough to tie the American Legion to the KKK and "Fascism".
Lastly, the "people's history" is written by people who are jealous of those who have lived the American dream. They are people who are too dull to invent something extraordinary, too lazy to work their ass off to get ahead, and blinded by hatred to see the opportunites in front of them.
Bob 3, Bill -2 (you lost points for the length of your useless comments).
Wed Dec 07, 11:33:00 PM CST
Bob-
I happen to agree that Saddam Hussein was a horrible murderous tyrant (imagine that... we agree on something!) Perhaps you should study the history of how the Baathist Party rose to power, how Saddam rose to power within the Party, and how he came to recieve support from the United States Government, for his war with the new Iranian Theocracy (a product of the 1979 Islamist revolution against the US & Nato's puppet government under the Shah)
All these things relate exactly to what I talked about in my "useless comments" above: Fascism (or totalitarianism) and how it rises to power. F.A. Hayek was dead wrong on the matter, you know... the only reason Hayek was famous was for his rightwing politics. He was pretty mediocre as an economist.
Haven't you ever seen this picture before?
Shaking Hands: Iraqi President Saddam Hussein greets Donald Rumsfeld, then special envoy of President Ronald Reagan, in Baghdad on December 20, 1983.
Oh thats right... the corporate media liberals never show you things like this becauswe it might undermine the empire (an empire which the Democrats are the primary builders of throughout the 20th century: Woodrow Wilson, FDR, Truman, LBJ, Hubert Humphrey, and Bill Clinton)
Also, considering you didn't even know who Joe Lindstrom was, I suggest you stop making assumptions about him. If you want to really know why Joe signed up, the best person to talk to would be Austin King, our student Alderman (a "radical progressive" in the words of the Badger Herald... King is hardly a radical in my eyes) Austin was Joe's best friend. I knew Joe through friends before he was shipped out, but wasn't particulariy close to him. I do know, however, that Joe was anti-war, and participated in innumerable anti-war protests.
HOWEVER, It doesn't matter one bit what the US troops think about the occupation of Iraq. THE IRAQI PEOPLE VIEW THE MILITARY OCCUPATION OF THEIR COUNTRY AS IMPERIALISM. I have personally met an independent journalist, who went to Iraq for 2 months to get the inside look at Iraq, the view you aren't getting from the corporate media whose reporters all work in militarily protected bunkers. In fact, I purchased his documentary which was playing at the Orpheum this last weekend, and would be more than willing to show it to you sometime. I have also seen another excellent indepenent journalist documentary (though I didn't meet the journalist... he's from Britain) called "Mission Accomplished" (you can rent it from 4Star Video)
Regardless, some of the troops ARE against the occupation, in fact I personally met one of the co-founders of Iraq Veterans Against the War when they were touring through Madison over the summer, on the "Camp Casey Caravan", a multi-state bus tour from participants in Cindy Sheehan's "Camp Casey" in Crawford, Texas. I actually had the honor of signing a song on stage at the event (it was in the Barrymore Theatre... I play guitar and sing folk music, especially old leftist protest music like Phil Ochs, Joe Hill, and Woody Guthrie. The song I sang was written by a more modern folk-protest singer, named David Rovics, and whole show was organized locally by a leader in the local Green Party, who is also a card-carrying Wobbly)
The thing you don't understand, is how little elections actually matters. Stalin's USSR had elections for crying out loud! In fact,
the Soviet Politburo had a higher incumbency defeat rate than does today's US Congress. And the Soviet State was based on a popular revolution against Tsarism -- Russia's version of Feudalist Monarchy!!
Democracy is a feature of societies, not of states. Arab Democracy must come out of Arab society, not imposed by Western Powers with globalized "blueprints" for free-market reforms (like the International Monetary Fund, the World Bank, and the World Trade Organization... or in the case of the Soviet Union, Marxism-Lenninism) I guarentee you, that if the Iraqi people were allowed to vote on the matter, all but the Kurds would vote overwhelmingly to end the military occupation of their country immediately. The problem is, they aren't allowed to vote on this matter. Free expressions of political dissent are systematically crushed by the occupational authorities, which is why insurgent attacks have dramatically increased since over the last 2 years. And don't forget that Al-Sadr
(an early clerical and nationalist opponent of the occupation) was a Shiite.
As for Jake's question about Wobblies taking up arms, I have a quote for him. Its from Eugene Debs, 5-time Socialist Party candidate for president, who was arrested and jailed in 1917 for publically opposing World War I. Debs was a cofounder of the IWW in Chicago, June 1905. (This year is our centenial celebration, I was in Chicago during tit)
"When I rise, it will be with the ranks, not from them." 1919 was also known as the "red years" in the United States, because of the incredible upsurges in organized labor, and several General Strikes, all of which was systematically repressed during "The Great War" (which Wilson claimed was "to make the world safe for democracy"... World War I)
The People's history is OUR history, Bob. You shouldn't claim to love America, if don't know the history of our people, since all you know is the ruling-class version of American history. Of course, Washington and Wall-Street want you to keep believing their history, but you are only hurting yourself and your fellow Americans by doing so. There's a reason I hate nationalism (i.e. what you call "anti-American") -- Nationalism is the religion of the State.
Thu Dec 08, 12:39:00 AM CST
"I guarentee you, that if the Iraqi people were allowed to vote on the matter, all but the Kurds would vote overwhelmingly to end the military occupation of their country immediately."
Bill, I don't care WHAT independent journalist you talked to, or WHICH peace activist-turned-veteran you are friends with, YOU CAN'T MAKE THIS GUARANTEE. Like it or not, no matter HOW many blogs you read, HOW many Wikopedia articles you post links to, or HOW many documentaries you view, YOU HAVEN'T BEEN THERE. That you would reject MSM articles and reports, military reports, and (I'm assuming) Presidential press conferences in favor of an independent journalist who spent 2 months in Iraq only shows how you pick and choose your 'history' of America to fit with your radical political views.
Thu Dec 08, 01:09:00 PM CST
Jake-
Its funny how the Bush administration and their supporters also pick their version of history, of America and its relationship with Iraq and the Middle East, to fit their political views. There is no such thing as objective history or social science.
All social study is subjective. The important question is -- whose view is it coming from? In this case, the two competing views are from
1) A set of people with a vested political, financial, military, and economic interest in swaying public opinion towards support of them, namely the Bush administration, the Pentagon, and much of the corporate newsmedia
VS
2) A few independent journalists, looking for a good story, with the courage to actually take a journey into Iraqi society, and see all sorts of things that the corporate news reporters miss.
I would challenge you to view either of these documentaries. The one made by the American journalist, includes scenes of Iraqi Kurds wearing a T-Shirt with Bush's picture on it, and talking about how much they love America. Things like that you don't even see on Fox News!!
In fact, the guy who made the documentary doesn't even share my politics, since he doesn't hold a "Troops out Now" position. He believes that the country needs to be partitioned into 3 seperate states (Shiite, Suuni, and Kurdish) and the UN brought in to regulate the oil wells in the interest of the Iraqi people.
I am for self-determination of the Iraqi people, and am against the UN. I do not believe that any foriegn power, US or UN, should be determining the future of Iraq.
Thu Dec 08, 02:13:00 PM CST
I just have one comment to Bill...
Regarding the handshake picture, that was all over the MSM leading up to the Iraq War. It's not fair to pretend that it wasn't.
Fri Dec 09, 01:17:00 AM CST
Good point Mark. I have seen that photo so many times it is starting to get sick. What they should show are some photos of Saddam killing the Kurds, but the liberal MSM would never do that, they want us to lose this war and they want Dems in power.
Sat Dec 10, 03:45:00 AM CST
Sorry guys, but I have never seen that in MSM, and I followed it pretty closely during the leadup to the invasion. That anti-war movement is what first got me interested in political activism.
I originally saw that picture in some leftist propoganda online flash video (which I've since forgetten the source of) and I'd challenge you to find a MSM source that cites it.
Its interesting to note that Phil Donahue's show was cut in late 2002 by MSNBC, for allowing strongly anti-war voices on his show, even though he was their highest rated program and his show was 29 years old.
Also, for Bob -- the gassing of the Kurds happened in 1987, while the United States was still giving financial and military support to Hussein. Ronald Reagan initially claimed to Congress that the gassing was done by Iran, but later conceded it was in fact his ally Saddam.
Now please tell me where you two have seen that photo in MSM, because I'm pretty sure I have never seen it there (Though I have seen a lot of Army, Marines, Airforce, and Navy Commercials in MSM... its starting to make me sick...)
Sat Dec 10, 04:52:00 AM CST
There is nothing sick about Marine commercials... those lava monsters needed killing.
Mon Dec 12, 12:28:00 AM CST
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